Jakob Barnard: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Jimmie office hours podcast, where academics talk about academics will travel from the depths of liberal arts to the forefront of practical application. Join us as we dive into critical discussions, shaping the minds of tomorrow.
Scot Loyd: Welcome to Jimmie office hours. My name is Scot Loyd, along with my colleague,
Jakob Barnard and Jakob, we've got a great program in store for our listeners today. I'll let you introduce our guests.
Jakob Barnard: Absolutely. And the idea from this for this episode actually came from a conversation we had at the end of the year faculty get together we were chatting, but we have Jim bear, Jim, if you could introduce yourself real quick.
Jim Bear: Yeah. So I'm Jim Baer. I'm part of the teacher education faculty at university to Jamestown. And I guess I'm just happy to be here and see what you guys have to teach me.
Jakob Barnard: All right. Well, it might be the other way around today, Jim, but we'll, [00:01:00] see what we can teach each other and hopefully impart to everybody else who's listening to us.
But so. The basis of today's topic is improv is a life skill, and we're talking about courses. And so just to kind of summarize the conversation you'd mentioned something, and I think this might be a good spot to start about your, I believe it was your principal certification. Cause you, you used to also be a And something where it was basically that the test I concluded was, well, they're, they're making you do improv and you have to prove that you can do improv.
Huh? That's it. So could you tell us a little bit about what that was?
Jim Bear: Yeah, so certainly. So I graduated with my master's in ed leadership from NDSU and. Most of that program was was an online program at that time online meant different than it does now. We did meet via Ivan and different things, but for for one of the final sessions that we had, [00:02:00] and it was actually a test at the end to determine whether or not we would make a good principle.
They invited existing principals and teachers and different community members in and basically role played. Right. And so, so that was that. And I didn't realize till after the fact this was almost serve an interview as well. So that so then you were able, they were, they were people who were talent scouts, if you will, looking for people to fill that role.
But what was super fun about that night and I have brought this into what I do in the classroom now, is I Is it really made me think, I mean, that was some of the most valuable experience I had through the whole program because, because it actually puts you in that space where you were pretending to be that person and fill that role.
Scot Loyd: So Jim, one thing that I remember about improv, right, is that when you're in that space where you're doing a improvisation you're always supposed to respond. Yes. And, and so, so no cuts everything off. Right. But when you say yes, [00:03:00] and it keeps the conversation going and I can't think of a better analogy for what we do in education, right?
Because it's always about moving. The conversation forward, moving knowledge forward. Can you start, can you start talking a little bit about maybe what that looks like in an educational setting?
Jim Bear: Sure. So for me it's interesting to think about how we actually learn these skills.
And unlike you, Scot, I've had very little. Actual communication experience, right or education. But when we think about how this looks like from my perspective in education is, is a lot of silence. Like, like you just referenced, yes, and well, that's key for me in my classroom situations too. I don't, I don't want.
Our future teachers to be people who think they want to stand in front of that classroom and just talk. So I like that. Yes. And because that's or maybe a yes, but or maybe a yes. What if [00:04:00] right? Because because a lot of that, a lot of that. And I think we didn't really define improv here yet. And maybe that's it.
Maybe that's a good place to go. So maybe, maybe we should, maybe you guys could, could do that for me.
Jakob Barnard: Yeah. Well, I, we probably all have a little bit different definitions. Scot so far, I believe is alluded to the correct definition or the correct interpretation. The, the reason I, I, I.
Decided that this would be a really good topic though, is in, in my area of computer science computing, I've never thought of it. As improvisation, I've always thought of it as following a process, which maybe this is jumping ahead in the conversation, but I don't know if those are mutually exclusive.
So yeah, you're absolutely correct. Jim, we should define improv. But it doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to have one definition to rule them all because I think we're all interpreting it a little bit differently, [00:05:00] which is absolutely just fine. So
Scot Loyd: Scot, do you want to. So, yeah. So in, in my context, in, in communication studies, which is, is closely aligned a lot of times in, in higher ed with the theatrical arts, there's this idea where Actors learn the art of acting by putting them in a situation.
And if you've ever been to an improv show, you you've seen this right where they'll solicit ideas from the audience and they'll give them a particular situation, a couple. For instance, a couple having a dinner at a a high end restaurant. And so then they start acting out this scene and they play off one another.
And so the first rule of learning how to improvise in an acting situation is that if you're with your acting partner. Whatever your acting partner says, you answer with yes. And even if you do [00:06:00] it quietly in your mind, because that keeps the scene going. And obviously you have to be quick and you have to think on the fly.
And so as this applies to what we're talking about today in communication, all of us have been in that situation where we're in front of the classroom and we have our lesson plan and, but as we know, things do not go as planned, rarely as planned. Ever do they go as planned? And so learning how to roll with the punches, so to speak in a classroom is very, very helpful.
And I think it's helpful for our students to develop that skill because if they come into the classroom and they are content with being handed this particular construct and they have to dot all the I's and cross all the T's that's going to lock them into a process. That you, that you alluded to Jakob, where there's not a lot of room for creativity.
There's not a lot of room [00:07:00] for growth. So when I think about education as improv, I'm thinking about walking into a situation. Attempting to evaluate where our students are with, with, with strategic questions, and then allowing them to contribute to that particular method where we slowly move them along in the direction of, of the way that we want them to go.
And of course, for every discipline, this is going to look different.
Jakob Barnard: And I, you know, I think it's really interesting because at least in my discipline, I'd never considered it improv. But that's really what we've been trying to convey your, your comments on walking to the club. We've all had things go wrong in the classroom that did remind me of the, the, you know, just a little story.
My very 1st teacher observation 1st, you're teaching here. You know, had had somebody from fact to have come over and observed the classroom, and that was the one day of the semester that everything in the computer lab broke about 510 minutes into the [00:08:00] class. But I think it was actually the highest compliments and things I had gotten.
Returned back to me, wow, nothing worked, but you filled the whole class period by switching and doing X, Y, and Z. And I said, well, yeah, if you try one thing, it doesn't work. You try the next thing that, that defined process that we really focus on in competing in computer science. It's. Because you never know what you will get with computers or, or any career really.
And so Jim, it'd be really interesting to hear how do you convey that in the education classes, because we're, we're trying to convey something similar to all of our classes, really, but. I don't think we're putting in the terms of improv and maybe that's hiding. Or maybe that's a better way to put it.
Then here's your, your 10 step process to follow when something breaks, how are you guys covering that in
Jim Bear: the ed classes? No, that's, that's super [00:09:00] interesting, you know, and I, and I agree with you. I haven't really thought about that in terms of improv either. I mean, in a lot of ways, that's just life, right?
You know, we go through our day to day and we do the things that we do, but since we're in charge of, of. Whether whether it's us as faculty members at UJ or whether it's the students that we're going to be teaching that are going to be that are going to be in charge of their own classrooms. Ultimately their job, their life is leading these kids, these kids on a path.
And, and, and it's really interesting when you think about, when you talk about the, the computer lab and having things break there, I mean, as, as you probably know, I teach the tech class for the, for our, our ed students as well. And that's one of the things I talk about at, because how easy is it? If you're relying on technology to do whatever it is you're trying to do in a classroom, which all of our teachers are doing right now.
And then when it breaks to just throw your hands up and say, I'm done. Right. But, but, but you can't, right. And, and, but it's no different than if it's technology [00:10:00] or if it's that Bobby came into the classroom and decided he was going to throw a fit, right. It's really the same thing. Well, if, whether it's a computer or whether it's Bobby, that that's messing things up, you still have to be in that situation where you're going to have to deal with that.
So. You know, I think it was alluded to well, practice is all any of this takes right? And this really, in my mind, that's the thing that and I know myself and all the rest of the ed faculty do this same thing where we put kids in front of that class as much as we possibly can. And part of it is we try to.
It's not always easy when kids have classes outside of the education realm, but we try to get them out into the field and take them out of the take them out of UJ and put them in front of actual students and really just work through that through that through that practicing part of that. Now, I think.
That, that, that I think a process like, like, like Jakob referred to, or even actually what Scot, what you were referring to as well, when we start, when we start asking those questions with the yes. And we, as far as [00:11:00] I know, and maybe, maybe I'm alone, but we don't really have any of those explicit things that we.
That we refer to when we're talking to our ed students. It's really just getting them in front and having them do it. And then that's, that's as much as I think we can do.
Scot Loyd: Jim, when it comes to education, what are some of the basics that you start with now, as opposed to when you first started in your career?
Whenever that was, how has, how has education evolved and changed in, in the last few years when you're working with, with teachers that are going to be in the classroom at, at all levels of education?
Jim Bear: Well, any, any ed faculty, when, when you ask the three most important things, any ed faculty at UJ, when you ask the three most important things about education, they're going to say is relationships, relationships and relationships, right?
And that's one of those things that has changed. Fairly drastically. And I think, I mean, COVID changed a lot of things, but that was a catalyst for, for, for certainly this and [00:12:00] education, because we started hearing a lot more about social, emotional issues that our students were having. And because of that, again, this improv we're talking about has become more important as well.
But it's super interesting to me too, because I started teaching at university of Jamestown in the fall of 2020. So. I haven't known teaching in higher ed. I did some adjuncting before that, but for the most part, I haven't known higher ed outside of the realm of post COVID. But what really struck me when I, the first time I stood in front, I remember the first class I taught at UJ, the first day I taught, I was teaching my assessment and evaluation course.
And I had a, you know, a presentation prepared and I, and I had my PowerPoint up and I was talking to students and everything I said, They were writing down furiously, right? And that just boggled my mind because I was, I was, I was a principal prior to that and, and that wasn't my [00:13:00] experience in education and, and I don't want that to be the experience, frankly, because I want the, I want the educational experience when we're in that classroom.
And this is a trend that I, that we've seen more of in recent years is just this idea that Everything that happens in that classroom should be a back and forth. It shouldn't be, it should be a discussion. Because you don't learn, and this is what, and this is, this is one of the things that I tell my students.
You don't learn by listening to somebody speak. You learn by speaking yourself, right? You have to take part in that process. And, and, and, for me, that, that, that improv piece we're talking about. That, that makes that so much easier, too, because we want our kids interacting and going back and forth. And, and so, to me, that's what I, so I started teaching in 1998.
And, you know, one of the things that, that teachers, the older teachers said when I started teaching was how, you know, kids are just different than they were, right? Kids, kids don't [00:14:00] want to study anymore. Kids don't want to learn. Kids don't want to take responsibility. Well, I
Scot Loyd: find myself saying that a lot these days,
Jim Bear: and that hasn't changed.
So for the last, for the last 26 years, people have been saying that. And so, so apparently those kids who didn't pay attention and didn't care in 1998 are now the good students. I don't know how that works because we should somehow wish, I don't know, it should be pretty drastically bad if that were actually the case But to me, those again, that back and forth, those relationships just has become more and more important.
But if you look back in the history of education, I mean, this has been ever since, the 1920s when, when, when John Dewey started being taken seriously, we started talking about student centered, student centered education, we we've, we've gone back and forth, right? We've gone back and forth between these ideas of, of having rich, of strict, rigid classrooms, or having more of this back and forth.
And, and, and frankly, when you look at the [00:15:00] data indicating which, which methods of things work better There isn't any real clear data to indicate, right? We, we don't see test scores, no matter what we, what policies we put in place. We don't really see test scores going up or down regardless. So, so It does make it does make a person struggle a little bit in terms of what that really should look like.
But oftentimes it does just it just it does just have to be dependent on those formative assessments that happen in that classroom. Like you were talking about just recently here too.
Jakob Barnard: no, it's interesting that you mentioned the, the relationship part of it. Cause when, when we're teaching a process or whether that's a process or , improvisational skills, like you were talking about in class, it's really about the finding a level of comfort with the unknown cause the, the example I've used is in like an it help desk class it help desk. You never know what's, what's going to come up. Your, your instant response can't be. You did [00:16:00] what? Even though it may, it may want to, just like when a student walks up to you and hands you into work, you.
You did what is not the appropriate learning mechanism there. And so how we handle those, the, the soft skills is Scot and I've talked about before really kind of, kind of factor into that. And then once they get out of here whether they're teaching or in an it, one the relationships are what really bring things together was Risey when I was working on my PhD in I.
T. One of my colleagues was spending their research on generational differences in the workplace. This was. Post COVID we are shortly after we, we, what COVID spring, I think is what we refer to it as now, but found that the expectation is usually that the younger, the individual, the more they want remote work, the more they do not want to be tied to an office and those sort of things, and [00:17:00] that's not.
What she found what she found is that the, particularly the younger generation who are either in college or, or coming out of college want to be in the workplace because that's the, the old water cooler chats to be able to interact with individuals particularly those who may have been there longer.
Gain that institutional knowledge, whether that is a school or you know, the it help desk, it would be really, really rough going straight from remote classes to remote work. Yes, you can. It is digital communication is of course possible. Computer media communications, one of my favorite comm topics.
So it's possible, but figuring out those relationships and learning from others What the responses should be to random scenarios. We learned that from others. And that kind of seems to be what you're saying, Jim, is that that's how you're teaching the ed students by [00:18:00] getting them in the classroom as soon as possible.
So they, they can have the experience, but the resources around them for How to handle that experience when Billy or whoever the student you mentioned was has their melt Bobby has their melt on a class. Billy probably did too. You know, how do you deal with that scenario? Similar kind of, you know, it's, it's improv.
Is it a process? Is there really a. Difference. I don't know, but you're doing the same sort of thing in, in it. And I'm, I'm wondering if maybe in my classes, I should be putting it in those terms the, Hey, this is improv. Maybe that catches the attention as opposed to a step to step process, even if it react, the actuality is the same thing,
Jim Bear: you know, you, you, you think you talk about it, especially, and as you know, I spent some time in it at UJ as well. And
more about that job is relationships than, than computer [00:19:00] skills, right? I mean, we really are saying that very same thing. And, and, and I know when I came in, I had come out of, I was principal before I was that as well for a couple of years. And, and, and I, I wasn't the, the. The top tech guy in Sorkness over there.
I, but I was still the person that a lot of people came to, I think, because I had practice as a principal when I had to, when I had to work with parents or students or whoever else, because, because those soft skills were important. So yeah, no, I agree with you. I think in, in your tech field, those soft skills are, are certainly.
Certainly something that should be tried to achieve.
Jakob Barnard: Yeah. And that tends to be the thing employers come back with too, of you know, technical skills, a new programming language, whatever we've covered the basics, it's applying those in unknown or new scenarios. That's when employers are looking for and the ability [00:20:00] to communicate those.
Work well with others. Even if you're a solo programmer who your goal is to never see the light of day that's absolutely fine, but you still have to engage with other people somehow in some way or fashion. So those are the ones employers tend to come back with saying no, no, this is what's missing in the workforce.
Scot Loyd: I have a friend who says all the time that and I think it's, it's a great rule to sort of govern our lives by is that life moves at the speed of relationships. So everything happens, right? So the old axiom, it's not necessarily what, you know, certainly that's important, but it's also who, you know, and learning to develop those relationships and, and, and, and learning how to engage.
With people that we may not have much in common with, but finding that common ground, establishing that rapport, and then moving forward. I remember when I was in graduate school and I was, I was, I was trying to figure out which direction I was [00:21:00] going to go in my graduate studies. And I ended up taking 30 hours beyond my master's degree in an education program and earned a specialty in, in community college education.
And I remember one of those classes specifically the professor wanted us to come up with an analogy for being a teacher in a classroom. In the classroom. And so some people talked about, you know, being a guide and, and being a, a prophet, you know, and, and I think all of that, all of that works, but the analogy that I came up with, and I think it works perfectly with what both of you are talking about right now is that the best analogy I can come up with.
For a teacher in the 21st century is a late night talk show host. And so if you think about those, those great talk shows of the past, whether it's Johnny Carson or David Letterman or even now with Jimmy Fallon and Stephen Colbert, those, those shows have a [00:22:00] particular. Format. So you have the host come out and he delivers a monologue.
Sometimes it's funny. Sometimes it's a commentary on what's happening in the world. But he opens it up with a monologue and then he introduces guests and they come and they either promote their movie or they share their expertise and there's a conversation. So I think as. Educators and teachers keeping in mind the the truth of that life moves at the speed of relationships we should limit those monologues.
And if you if you watch late night television, you probably noticed that the monologues over the years have gotten shorter and shorter and shorter. Probably has a lot to do with people's attention spans, but also the format continues to update and change any ball. So now the monologue at the beginning of the show is relatively short compared to what it was in Johnny Carson's day and age.
And then the guests come in and, and now, especially with shows like Stephen [00:23:00] Colbert. It doesn't necessarily have to be comedic. It doesn't necessarily have to be entertainment based. There's a lot of substance that is discussed as well. And so what if we started treating our classrooms and developing the next generation of teachers to see themselves as, as people that are facilitating these relationships.
So yes, open up your classroom and your lesson with a monologue, but then move quickly to the next generation. Into those dialogues where you're speaking to one another and you're moving it forward and also keeping in mind, fortunately, or unfortunately that so much of what we do in our world today is entertainment based.
And I know that we're not all going to be Hollywood comedians or or personalities. But we need to think in terms of, Hey, whenever, and this is true, certainly in the, the communications discipline, whenever you're standing in front of an audience, you're in show business. So you've got to keep it moving.
[00:24:00] You've got to facilitate it and you've got to keep it interesting. One of the things I share with my students all the time is that if, if your audience goes to sleep on you, it's not their fault. It's yours. So as educators, we have a responsibility to keep our audience, in this case, our students engaged and awake and, and that requires us being creative.
So I, I know I, I, I sort of said a lot there, but I'll let you guys follow up on, on that analogy of an educator being a, a late night talk show host.
Jim Bear: Could, could, could we go a step further and, and ask the question, how does that change? In our world of Tick Tock.
Scot Loyd: Yeah.
Jim Bear: Right. I mean, think on that because, because we've got, it always boggles my mind when I see people looking at their Tick Tock screens for hours and it's, it's, it's nothing right.
We've got people who are recording short videos of them. With in my mind with no content at all. And, [00:25:00] and, and so, so you talk about starting with a monologue, but, but those monologues get shorter and shorter. And I wonder, is TikTok just that next step where it's, where it's not really funny, it's not really anything.
It's just. Short little blips.
Jakob Barnard: Absolutely. I mean, you, you think of the, there's the comparison for how we you know, to, to steal some ideas from journalism the newspaper, but then we have the USA today, which is the small bite size web development. When we're talking about writing content for the web you know, it's gotta be short, their attention span, you know, if you don't capture their attention, three seconds, that's it.
They're gone. Is that conveying over to, to the classroom and which, which means those improvs picking things up on, on a dime yes, you may have a response pattern, a process, if you will, are even more important. Cause we've got that much less time to capture the attention as Scot was saying really the, the, what is the entertainment factor and you know, whether, whether it's a, you're the [00:26:00] ringleader or the Conductor that, that engagement part is even more important.
Scot Loyd: Yeah. And just to follow up on that, you know there, there's two ways to look at this, right? So the, the, the, the famous book Neil Postman musing ourselves to death, which, you know, in, in that he said, you know, he was lamenting the fact that you know, it was written in the 1980s and it was very prophetic.
And, In that he was lamenting the end of of, of a written culture of people actually reading and absorbing information that way and as quickly moving to an entertainment based. Society where everything, Jim, like you mentioned is those those, those tick tock videos where there are some of substance, but for the vast majority of them, it's just doom scrolling, right?
Where you're seeing absolutely nothing. And for hours and hours and hours, it's just. It's consuming your mind with nothing of [00:27:00] substance. And so he was lamenting the fact that that was the direction that the world was going. And, and, and certainly I think there's, there's part of me, there's part of all of us that came up at a certain time in the world.
And we look at it from a certain perspective that we see the world differently. But the flip side of that is the world has changed. And so, you know, the, the, the cow is out of the barn. So what are we going to do on, on this side of, of, of the reality that our students are, are dealing with a, a very short attention span.
And the students, the generation coming up behind them are even shorter. They've been raised on media via small screens and small very short bites. And what are we going to do about that? So I think this might be a good time for us to take our, our mid hour break, [00:28:00] and then we'll come back and we'll, we'll talk about some of the realities in, in, in that entertainment culture in which we now all find ourselves as educators.
You're listening to Jimmie office hours, and we'll be back in just a moment. Stay tuned.
Welcome back to Jimmie office hours. I'm Scot Loyd along with my colleague Jakob Barnard. And today we are privileged to have Jim bear with us. And he is part of the education faculty here at the university of Jamestown and Jim, before the break, we, we were talking about, in fact, you're, you're the one that brought this up, this idea of, of the tick tock generation and everything being short and everything being very Concise and quick and moving on.
I remember a few years ago, the standard for broadcast television was that if you were editing something the image had to change every five [00:29:00] seconds. It's been a while since I've checked that, but I suspect that that's getting shorter and shorter and shorter. So as educators. Teaching the next generation of educators, how do you deal with some of those realities?
And what are some of the tools that you're implementing into the classroom to connect with students who are you know, sort of expecting the world to continue to be As, as they see it and as they consume it through media,
Jim Bear: well I guess in my mind, I always like to see how we can leverage that.
So, so, so it's, it's a, it's a challenge certainly because we always need to be, we always need to be, some teachers feel like they always need to be. Need to be the entertainer in front of the room. Right. And I guess I'm, well, if you've ever been in my classroom, I'm not the entertainer in front of the room.
But with that said, one thing, one thing that I, that I recognize, and this goes along with the tick tock generation as well is, is [00:30:00] when you look at the content that's out there. There's not a lot of substance, as you had mentioned, Scot, but, but it's also true that, that it is people who are revealing things about themselves, right?
And so, one of the things we can leverage is, is we can let kids talk about themselves, because not only, because not only do they want to do that, if you can, if you can get them to talk about themselves and really, Experiences of their own that's related to the content, which you're delivering, which is perhaps easier in, in education and communication than it would be in computer science.
But but if a guy can do that now, now what we have is we have them on the stage and that's what they want. Ultimately that that's, I don't, I, I'd be lying if I said, I really understand the, the, the draw of the tech talk. The tick tock. But
Scot Loyd: it's all right. We're all struggling here. I promise you.
Jim Bear: But, but I do think that there is that [00:31:00] element of kids are relating to what they see.
And not only are they relating to what they see, they're going to go and they're going to do it themselves. And, and, and, and for whatever reason, this whole thing feeds, feeds itself in it. And it's created something that, that is, that, that's getting more attention. Yeah. And practically any other media we see.
And so, what, what, what I like to do, and this is what I tell my students as well, is, you, You give the kids the stage as much as you possibly can. They are more interested in each other than they are in me anyway. And then it also helps develop community relationships within that classroom. And, and, and so that's, that's, that, that is closely related to that whole tick tock mentality, I believe.
But it also is what we think of as a good teaching. So, yeah,
Jakob Barnard: that, that brings up you know, Two thoughts is the first one is you, you point this out much earlier, but this is nothing new. We we've been saying, Hey, they, they, they, they, they don't pay attention. They don't learn. [00:32:00] I don't, that's been getting said for a zillion years.
You know, we Roman graffiti on the walls of Pompeii, you know, Some things just are always gonna be that the, the younger generation doesn't X, y, z what, whatever insert it in now. And you know what the the buzzword the last couple of years has been critical thinking skills with, with ai. You know, they don't need to think anymore.
Well, they also said that about the invention of the computer. Oh, people won't need to know stuff. So how we handle it. Just to reassure ourselves is this is a natural cycle. So we know this is going to happen. We know that we're going to have to adjust things. We do a lot of our teaching based on what was taught to us and how we, we learned to convey knowledge.
Also knowing that not all of those methods work for ourselves. And so figuring that out and, you know, with, with the AI, we've been, at least in CS in it, we've been really, really talking about needing to move to a show, not tell model because, [00:33:00] well, yeah, AI can write, write code, but I want you to show that it works.
So things like more student presentations more. One of the favorite ones I saw one of my faculty do this year was I think they, a couple of them did it. They had students create a tutorial for one of the lessons and that was their assignment was to create a tutorial for their classmates. And As educators, you guys know, there's no better way to learn something than try to teach somebody else.
One of what I was talking with a prospective grad student the other day, and that was, you're asking me about, well, I don't know if I want to teach. And I'm like, well, if you really enjoy learning stuff, you will enjoy teaching because the best way to learn is to teach. And so I'm wondering if we just need to integrate.
We've tried and in some cases we do too far in some of the classes with some of the flipped classroom stuff that can get a bit much, but like you're saying, Jim, putting them on that stage, giving the opportunity to show a it. Embraces the new [00:34:00] technology, which we're going to have to do at some point anyways, whether we want to or not.
But B gives them that opportunity to get themselves out there a little bit. And that's where the biggest hesitation I tend to see with students. I don't know if it's particularly the computing classes or what but it's that discomfort of, I want to show everybody, but I don't I want to be shy or whatever it is.
And so. More ways of doing that more regularly forces the the the improv skills
Jim Bear: and they want to right I mean Even if they even if they say they don't want to they do want to once once you get them doing it it It snowballs fairly quickly and that's something I mean, I know it seems like a lot of students depending on the size of the school or where they've gone to school when they come in, when I have them in intro to Ed, this is their first time speaking in front [00:35:00] of a crowd sometimes, and this is boggles my mind.
They never had a high school class where their teacher put them in front of the class and had them speaking. But a lot of them say that, so I'm not, I don't. I, I'm hesitant to, to think that they're not remembering things accurately. I, I, I do think that that's probably true, but once they start doing it, and again, those relationships are key, right?
As, as long as they have good relationships with their peers in that classroom, which for the most part they do. And they can, once they start, once they have made that leap it's all about. It's all about making that comfort zone bigger, bigger. The only way to make that comfort zone bigger is to get them to step outside of that comfort zone.
And then it just naturally grows. Right
Jakob Barnard: now. Now that you mentioned that usually when I've heard complaints or just concern in the past about things like presentations, it hasn't necessarily been about. The being up in front itself, it's been about the group work, the dreaded group project. I have to rely on others.
If I just [00:36:00] show myself in front of others, you know, I have had the one or two extremely shyer or inner individuals who were just absolutely terrified of going up in front of a group that's understandable. And, and. There's ways to work on that. And I can say that this would do, but it's, if now I'm thinking about it, now I mentioned it that way, it's usually the group aspect that seems to be, I don't want to do that more than you're making me get up in front of everybody.
Jim Bear: But group work is a struggle for a lot of reasons, right? Right. I mean, and, and I think, and I do believe that our technology has made that potentially worse because students. If you assign group work, it's rare that they're actually going to get together and do it because they can just send an email and and and now if you've got a group of three, four or five students, there's going to be one who takes the lead and that student oftentimes is the one that that does [00:37:00] a big chunk of the work and and so that student doesn't like it because they're doing a big chunk of the work, but also the student who isn't doing the work doesn't like it because they They don't feel like they're a part of things and and maybe, you know, there's so many different dynamics in that group.
And that's, that's, again, one of those things that I mean, I do. I do try to focus on group work in my courses simply because because I want them to recognize what happens when you do that. But but also. There has to be a little bit of coaching throughout that group work as well, because everybody needs to be able to step up and everybody needs to be able to, to figure out how they're going to, how they're going to contribute equally or, or in a meaningful way in a group, but oftentimes just.
Group work goes sour pretty quickly sometimes.
Jakob Barnard: Oh, and it does. And that's nothing new. But it's interesting that you put it in terms of, you know, it's even more difficult these ways. Because I've been thinking of it the opposite, just experiences of my undergrad [00:38:00] of, I remember dropping a class entirely because I got mad at the group.
They'd scheduled things like three hours before. I think it was my second senior year of my undergrad that nope, I'm working tonight. I can't do that. Went to the, went to the professor time, you know, was oh, you'll have to figure that out. And I'm, no, I don't, don't need this class to graduate.
I'm out. Which. Whatever years later, that probably wasn't the best way of dealing with it. But in my head, it's been, Oh, group work so much easier. Now let's hop on a zoom. Let's, but you, but you're absolutely right. Those tendencies. We know every group is like that or the, the fear that every group is going to be like that.
It's something so maybe that's something we can, you know, better address or provide those tools like you're like you're saying, that's one of the learning outcomes of our program to is, you know, be able to work in a group, but are we introducing that early enough or. Staged enough with enough support structures.
Great. [00:39:00] Here is a meeting template that you guys need to fill out every time you meet. Whatever the technique is. I don't know. Because I, I think that's it is the, the fear of having to force relationships with not enough experience in how to do that back and forth. Jim Scot and I ended up on a Committee this year we'd all have the experience to say, Hey, Jake, we haven't heard from you in three weeks.
Here's what we need to do. And, but students do not. And so they hate group work and maybe it's the dealing with the relationships more than having to be up and do public speaking and cause everybody says they're scared of the public speaking and those parts of it, but that's not what they complain about on the feedback.
When they said, Oh, I had to do this horrible group project or, or wonderful group project. It's, it's not the, the presentation part that they actually complain about.
Scot Loyd: And I think this is where a, a robust liberal arts education is very helpful, right? Because Jim, you referenced the [00:40:00] students Fears about being in front of a group or the group work that is involved.
And this is something that we address in one of the, one of the core components of a liberal arts education, which is rhetoric, right? Public speaking. And part of what we do in, in my discipline of communication is that we emphasize. Group work. In fact, one of the assignments that I give every semester in public speaking is a group project.
And I tell the students, this is as much about the process of learning to get along with one another to solve problems like logistics, making sure that you're all on the same page. Dealing with schedules that are difficult to nail down that are constantly changing and delivering a quality presentation on the other end.
Does that mean practically and realistically that some of you are going to have to take [00:41:00] responsibility, more responsibility than other members of your group? Absolutely. But welcome to the real world, right? That's how life works. We cannot expect everybody in the group to be as competent. As maybe you are, or as skilled as you are at a, at a specific skill set.
And what it takes within, in the group work is learning how to manage all of those different personalities, both. All those different talents and to bring them together in a way that produces a quality product in the end. So it develops skills like leadership. So everyone knows, I think that, that Jakob and I really like Star Trek, right?
So if you, to use a Star Trek analogy what was, What was Jim Kirk's skill set the captain of the enterprise? What did he do? Well, you had McCoy that was a doctor. You had Spock that was a science officer. You had a Scoty who was [00:42:00] responsible for engineering and keeping the ship together. Uhura was the communications officer.
What did Kirk do? Well, he didn't do anything. He was the leader and leadership is a skill set, and it's an important responsibility to manage all of those personalities and to bring them together to solve the problem. And so this is where the, the liberal arts, I think can help us. And that, that leads us to one of our discussion questions, Jim.
How can a, a robust liberal arts approach make us better at handling the unknown because as a teacher you've, you've always got to be prepared for that. I think as, as the world continues to change, classrooms continue to evolve. What is the value of a liberal arts education in the education field?
Jim Bear: So let's in that context, then let's define liberal arts, right? B because, [00:43:00] well, what does, what does that mean to you? When, when you ask that question, what, what are, what are we actually asking in terms of liberal arts?
Jakob Barnard: The the, the broad based holistic approach well, you know, we're, We, we've talked about this before, but stealing it from our university mission and values is one of the plays because we put it very concisely there.
There's a book long explanations on what that is, but know that that little bit of everything is the two second elevator pitch that I like to use.
Jim Bear: Okay. So, so, and I guess, so I was on the gen ed. Task force this year. And so we've, we've spent a lot of time talking about the liberal arts and really what, what it is that, what it is that we're referring to.
And so if, if that's what we're saying, it is, it's just a smattering of everything, right. Does that imply Jack of all trades and master of none? Is that, Oh, I mean, I it's, it's ultimately, I guess it allows flexibility. Right. Yeah. [00:44:00] That's what we're saying. And really that's what improv. Is I mean, and so in that regard, and I think you would refer to Captain Kirk, right?
And we say, we say jackpot trades and master of none, as if that's a bad thing, but you're right. That's not a bad thing in that regard. He knows a little bit about everything that's happening on that ship, right? He isn't the guy who knows the specifics about any little thing that's happening. But that's the, I think in my mind, that's the value of a liberal arts education, because it does give you.
That little bit of everything. And then you, and then, and that's what's up. That's within the gen ed, the gen ed sequence. Right. And then you go off into your specifics. And that's also why in the university of James on mission statement, it talks about professional studies in addition to the liberal arts, right?
Because that's, that's a different piece, but it is interesting to me that, that, that the, the, that liberal arts piece, that, that general knowledge there, there does [00:45:00] have to be an emphasis. On those soft skills, which we've been talking about from the very beginning. So, so, so there's a question then with that, and maybe this is going off off topic a little bit, but.
Is that what all the gen ed process should be for is just, and
Scot Loyd: I think, yeah, and I think you raise an interesting question. And this is, this is a debate that is happening around the country at every institution of higher education right now is what constitutes. What is the foundation of what we want to teach?
Do we want our schools to devolve into institutions like trade schools where you come and learn a specific skill set, a specific knowledge base? Well, at the university of Jamestown, for instance, we have we have dedicated ourselves to this idea that we're going to be a liberal arts [00:46:00] institution with very real world practical applications.
And so what, what. What you were tasked with on that gen ed was figuring out what does that well rounded education look like? And so I, I think that's going to continue to be an evolution of sorts as the world continues to change because it's impossible, right? It's impossible to know everything, but as you move forward, you do want to know some things.
There are some important skills that will help you be a better nurse, that will help you be a better engineer that will help you be a better teacher that will help you be a, a better biologist. And of course, you've got to be specific in your discipline, but. I, I referenced Neil Postman earlier and amusing ourselves to death.
I found another book by Neil Postman that is, is, is not as well known. And it's called the end of education. And in [00:47:00] it, it was written in 1997. And in it, he laments a lot of what we're having to deal with now. From a critical standpoint, that the idea of multiculturalism, the idea of deconstruction, that there's a lot happening in our world, you know, that words don't mean anything anymore.
And it's, it's hard to, to nail something down if it's jello, right. And so that's what we're dealing with in our world. And he was seeing this coming. But he puts forth this interesting idea when it, as it refers to the liberal arts we ask educators. To, to do on its face to contradictory things for our students, we ask them to train students to adapt and accept the world as it is.
And then on the flip side of that, we ask them to train students to be critical thinkers and to challenge the world as it is. And so if we're looking for a definition of the liberal arts, I think there's better specific [00:48:00] definition, but that's a great working definition in my mind is that when a student emerges on the other side of graduation here at UJ, have we prepared them to adapt to the world as it is.
And conversely, to challenge the world as it is. And meeting some of our graduates, I'm very encouraged meeting others of our graduates. I'm discouraged. I had an interaction with a young man that was getting ready to graduate. And of course there's no names and nothing like that. But in, in debate, we talk about all kinds of things and this young man was seriously advocating.
It was something that he believed, you know, that we didn't land on the moon that all of that was fabricated, that all of that was made up. And I, I was thinking, but you know, he was, he was, he was there's a difference in questioning those things. I, I, I'm not sure we should legitimately question those things, but there's also a difference in, in being dogmatic that it did not [00:49:00] happen.
Right. And, and someone that is getting ready to graduate from a. A liberal arts institution should be a little bit more intellectually humble, right? When it comes to those kinds of ideas. And so adapting to the world as it is. But also a critical thinker and questioning the world. And so I'll let you guys talk about those particular ideas.
Jakob Barnard: Well,
Jim Bear: but you've got it.
Jakob Barnard: Oh, go ahead.
Jim Bear: Sorry.
Jakob Barnard: Well, you go ahead. So just to kind of respond to the early one, the, the jack of all trades, I like to put it more as a, a foundation to apply yourself to anything. That doesn't necessarily mean you will have the knowledge, but you, you will know how to gain knowledge.
But whatever the situation is, you can, you have a framework for how to deal with it. I, I always put it in terms of it processes of, you know, whatever the customer comes in with, you're going to handle it. It, it may be the, wow, that's the most bizarre thing [00:50:00] and totally not their fault or. I don't know why you left your laptop on the stove, but yes, that's a problem, a sort of scenario.
You have a way of dealing with it. And so, you know, just to kind of circle around the beginning of things, really a lot of what we're, we're, we're teaching or hoping that we get out by the, by the time they graduate from here is that framework for how to handle the world as it is, whether it's questioning it or not, as Scot was saying, but there's that framework.
And so it, Those improv skills, the thinking on your feet doesn't necessarily need to be thinking on your feet, but how to handle a new situation. Really one of those things we're hoping to convey by the time they graduate from here.
Jim Bear: I, I, I really, I really enjoyed listening to what Scot had to say about the, the landing on the moon and the dogmatism versus critical thinking. Right. And, but it, but it really made me think because when I was teaching. So, so we're talking 20 years [00:51:00] ago, there was a foreign exchange student in, in my classroom who came from Moldova and her mind was blown away when we told her that we believed that we did land on them and, and because she was taught the opposite that, that the United States had faked that whole thing.
Now that that was, it, you know, I was very impressed with her, with how she responded to that, and because she, because she was willing to think about our perspective, but I was also, I was also encouraged by my students, who nobody called her an idiot, or, I mean, they respected her ideas too, and they, and some of them did start thinking critically about that as well.
And now, It's, it's interesting because a lot of that comes to scale because we see in history now, now I, I, I do believe we landed on the moon, but when we see history and we look back to how, how, just
Scot Loyd: for the record,
Jim Bear: just for the [00:52:00] record, just cause I don't want it. Well, anyway but when we look back at history and see the different things that, that have occurred.
That people vary from, that's part of aging too, right? We develop things in our head that we know are true. And, and, and, and, and we have values that we, that we stick by, and we, and we won't move off of those things regardless of the information that's fed to us. But that's, that is part of aging. That, that's part of that whole process of wisdom too.
Because there are, because it does, there does have to come a point when we recognize that, We can't be swayed by every little thing that comes our way. And so, so that that that's important to consider. And I think that's part of our liberal, our liberal arts education as well, is puts us in a place where we can consider all these pieces and we can think critically about all these things.
But in the end we can draw conclusions and we can have strong set of values, which can put us in a place that, that can. That can make our world a better place ultimately.
Jakob Barnard: And that is one of the great things about technology these [00:53:00] days. I mean, we, we lament in some cases the students in a incessant need to, to be connected, instant access to information that sort of stuff, but it, that just reminded me of a meme I saw, Oh, I think it was about a month ago, about 20 years ago, aunt, aunt, so and so told us this and we believed it for 20 years.
Now I tell my kid this and they Google it and tell me I'm wrong. And so it's a double edged sword. Yes, that this instant access to information, but it can also if we Are able to balance that with the critical thinking skills to evaluate the sources of your information. But then reasonably convey them as well.
I think that's also seems to be you know, we'll just lament about that with society in general, the ability to have reasonable discourse in civil disagreements. That's nothing new that, that, that, that, Happens the internet just seems to [00:54:00] facilitate it that much quicker and louder. So if we can also also get that out there, you know, the ability to handle unfamiliar situations but combine that with this that would be.
Fantastic.
Scot Loyd: Jim, we're nearing the end of our hour together. We wanted to give you an opportunity for, for the last word, anything that you'd like to share with us, anything that you wished that other educators understood better about the education discipline or perhaps something that that's been on your mind that you've been thinking about that That you communicate to your students.
That is very important for their future. And, and for the future of all of us, because education impacts every aspect of our society and lives, whether we're directly involved in it or indirectly. It's, it's, it's a, it's, it's a powerful component of, of who we are. So
Jim Bear: you put me in a place of improv where I got to come up with something, some wide, [00:55:00] some wise words.
Yeah. When we think about the world in which we live, when we think about the different things we've talked about, whether it's TikTok or whether it's the, the, the The Internet and all the information were bombarded with all the time, and we're thinking about how we're going to draw conclusions about the world around us.
It's important to recognize that that is that that's what our classroom looks like, right? When, when, when we bring our, when we have a classroom full of kids, whether they're college students or whether they're 1st graders. All of these are individuals that have something to add to the conversation and something to add to the wisdom that we have in our minds and something to add to all of the wealth of the knowledge of the world.
And in the past, if we were going to go back pre Internet, pre Facebook, pre Twitter, and we were going to determine where we got the information, which we relied upon. That was from a very central source, and that didn't mean [00:56:00] necessarily that it was accurate, right? It wasn't always, and we could look at the landing on the moon, even though I'm convinced.
We really are taking, taking The word of a very small group of people and applying it to what we believe. And, and one of the beautiful things about the world and one of the beautiful things about education is we've got access to, to, to people, even if they're five year olds that don't have a whole lot of world knowledge yet, that can still contribute to our, our knowledge that we have.
So it's a benefit for, for all of us as teachers.
Jakob Barnard: Awesome. Well said Jim. I get it's been a blast talking with you today. I am sure we will chat again in the future there. And so we will wrap it up for today, but, but thank you both Scot and Jim for your time today.
If you enjoyed this episode of the Jimmie office, our podcast, please do us a favor and be sure to like, share, subscribe, [00:57:00] and rate our program. Let us know what you think and what you might like to hear about in the future, along with sharing the show to a colleague, prospective student, or somebody who might be interested in a liberal arts education.
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